Himalaya Studios - Adventure Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!  (Read 159414 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Blake00

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
    • Blake's Sanctum
Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« on: July 16, 2013, 11:17:38 AM »

Well Jim said in that interview with the space quest guys a few months back that he was gonna come out of retirement and sure enough he's back!

Looks like a very interesting merge of modern cartoon style (with almost a dark gothic comic quality) graphics with old style police quest gameplay..

even if you're not a police quest fan you should watch the pitch video as they do a good tribute to sierra there :)

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/precinctgame/precinct
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 11:22:45 AM by Blake00 »
Logged

Blake's Sanctum - Quest For Glory Series:
fan page containing pics, vids, info, walkthroughs, patches, & maps!

Intendant S

  • Mage's Initiation Beta Tester
  • Hiker
  • *
  • Posts: 67
  • Hero of the Adventure Game Revival Movement
    • View Profile
    • Kickstart Ventures
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2013, 11:34:25 AM »

Yeah, I'm in at a low level.  Police Quest wasn't my favorite Sierra series, but I did enjoy it enough to back the new project.
Logged
"Then you fear yourself. I don't want your fear; I want your love. If you can't love me, who can?"

Nipples

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Hiker
  • *
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
    • Excitement-building adventure theme
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2013, 05:25:40 PM »

Their pitch video seems like an ad for Sierra Online. I still don't know enough about the game.

I'll be watching for more updates (and hopefully a demo?) before backing. I want to back this game, but I'm just not convinced yet.


Logged

Blake00

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
    • Blake's Sanctum
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2013, 05:06:57 AM »

sure enough things didn't go so well so Jim's cancelled the kickstarter and moved to their own fundraising site

http://fund.precinctgame.com/
Logged

Blake's Sanctum - Quest For Glory Series:
fan page containing pics, vids, info, walkthroughs, patches, & maps!

GameDevChris

  • Administrator
  • Sumiteer
  • *
  • Posts: 5616
    • View Profile
    • http://www.himalayastudios.com
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2013, 07:57:02 AM »

It's really melancholic to see how this Kickstarter floundered and, even now, continues to wage an uphill battle with the new funding system. It's evident that the relevant lessons weren't learned as they're still doing the chasing, rather than being chased. Sadly, I don't think this game is ever going to see the light of day with the current approach or attitude to crowdfunding.

What confounds me is that when we were talking with Robert about working together on the Precinct Kickstarter, we were very clear with him about the caveats; about all of these potential pitfalls that have now come to pass. We gave him practical advice about how to avoid them -- as well as offering financial/accounting/swag production/logistics expertise when it comes to physical rewards for backers while keeping costs to a minimum so that it doesn't eat too much into the budget. Not to mention that we have another cop on the team who could have worked very well alongside Jim to give the story some modern day flair and authenticity). In their recent Reddit AMA, Robert quoted $150k to cover all of their swag costs (sans shipping). Now, I'm not sure who's doing their accounting, but had they involved us, we could have handled all of this for a fraction of that cost (and offered more rewards to boot), ran a sharper campaign, and helped greatly to promote it amongst the adventure community.

We had already put several months of time and effort into researching rewards for the Kickstarter campaign and fine-tuning potential financials to help Jim and Robert get the absolute most from the campaign, but before we knew it, and without informing us, they launched the Precinct Kickstarter without providing us with a reason for why they reneged on such a well-suited team for the task. I can't guarantee that our involvement would have ensured Precinct's success, but I CAN say that even if it failed, the campaign would have come out with a professional image, a more heavily-anticipated title with a clearly-defined structure, and a more trustworthy-looking foundation from which to launch a second attempt.

As things panned out, I see this as a really disappointing campaign, where everything that could go wrong DID go wrong and the game's reputation has suffered, perhaps irrevocably, for it. According to our research, Police Quest was Sierra's 2nd or 3rd best-selling series, behind only King's Quest and Leisure Suit Larry. The potential of this campaign was huge, and unfortunately, they didn't listen to the advice given prior to and during the campaign, and made a royal mess of something that could have been a shoo-in for success.
Logged

Intendant S

  • Mage's Initiation Beta Tester
  • Hiker
  • *
  • Posts: 67
  • Hero of the Adventure Game Revival Movement
    • View Profile
    • Kickstart Ventures
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2013, 08:45:05 AM »

Yeah, the Kickstarter was doomed to failure with the way they were handling it and the new funding model is a joke.  The sad thing is that several of us regular members of the AGRM did our damnedest to get them back on track but they didn't listen and only made things worse.  I had expected them to cancel it, regroup, and go in for a second time later when they got everything sorted out.  Unfortunately, they ended up with this stupid "tiered funding" approach that turned a lot of us off.  Perhaps Precinct would have done better with Himalaya, maybe not.  But I can tell you that it would have been a huge boon to them.

And not only did they have the usual suspects on board giving them advice, but they ended up taking Rudy Marchant (of Sierra Chest) on board as a community manager.  And from what he's told me he's trying his best to get the project back on track, but I fear that his attempts to do so are backfiring because Robert does not know how to manage a crowdfunding project at all.  The AMA yesterday is proof of them not knowing what they're doing.

In short, I lost faith during the Kickstarter campaign, but the AMA proved that my money is best spent elsewhere.  My questions, as well as that of others, were not answered satisfactorily and have only damaged them further.  It saddens me a bit to see them struggle, but they've only got themselves to blame for the failure.  I agree that I don't see this one succeeding in any way.  I doubt they'd even get to the $25K milestone.
Logged
"Then you fear yourself. I don't want your fear; I want your love. If you can't love me, who can?"

FamousAdventurer77

  • Royal Treasurer
  • Active Development Team
  • Climber
  • *
  • Posts: 255
  • Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2013, 11:04:30 AM »

Wasn't the original figure $200K for swag, and they didn't even offer game boxes? Er...we have a LOT more swag and our swag-related damages didn't even come close to breaching a six-figure amount in its entirety. Even after freight/lading! (Standing before many, many resin figures that traveled about 8,500 miles has shown me this. And there's more coming!)

I didn't look at the AMA (though from reading the KS comments I saw many concerns about this new funding system) but just from my first glance at how the rewards on the campaign page were initially set up, the tier just to get a basic digital copy of the game was definitely overpriced. You need only look at every successful game campaign-- be it the Sierra giants that grossed a mid-six figure range or indie productions that made $50K or less-- to know that that tier is where a majority of your backers will put their money, even though it won't provide the majority of your total funding.

Case in point, the majority of our backers pledged to the $16 tier as expected-- though the tier provided about 20% of our total funding (this isn't counting PayPal pledges, just KS only.) It also doesn't account for the large swath of backers who started there, then upped their pledges as the campaign wore on.

I do recall conveying that bit of information-- that you need to be careful with that price point because the point of your Kickstarter is that you want to give special incentives to back the game now instead of buying it later. It's more than just being a part of the process-- what does your backer get out of the deal? $16-20 would be an ideal price for a game like Mage's Initiation since it's got an epic scope as it is, and made even more epic thanks to our backers! However, it wouldn't be fair to the backers to have a $16 point just to make the finished game the same price upon release-- they helped see it to release. Thus we kept this in mind and offered more goodies at the $16 and $20 tiers, like the soundtrack and getting your name in a library book plus some colorful shiny stickers. Beyond that would be getting our fantabulous swag and basic or Collector's Edition boxed copies for far less than what they'd retail for since the tiers were pretty much cumulative. (And, our way of saying thanks for helping us kick off our merchandising in addition to the game itself!)

I kinda knew Precinct wasn't going to make it when I saw that the digital-copy-of-game tier was priced far higher than most other gaming campaigns I'd seen.
Logged
"When I think of what could have been, makes it hard to start again"-- Downlow NYHC

Blake00

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
    • Blake's Sanctum
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2013, 01:00:27 AM »

I kinda knew Precinct wasn't going to make it when I saw that the digital-copy-of-game tier was priced far higher than most other gaming campaigns I'd seen.

Same.. that was a huge mistake almost everyone could see yet it went right over their heads. :(
Logged

Blake's Sanctum - Quest For Glory Series:
fan page containing pics, vids, info, walkthroughs, patches, & maps!

RogerXY

  • Mage's Initiation Beta Tester
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Save early, save often
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2013, 01:03:00 PM »

Yes I was really hoping that Jim and Britney would team up and Himalaya Studios could make the game. I realize more and more that Precinct won't see the day of light unless something drastically changes. A big shame :/

That said, you guys can still make a great cop game, with Jim or without!
Logged
Brimhall of Fame

dakwiz

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2013, 07:09:30 PM »

It's really melancholic to see how this Kickstarter floundered and, even now, continues to wage an uphill battle with the new funding system. It's evident that the relevant lessons weren't learned as they're still doing the chasing, rather than being chased. Sadly, I don't think this game is ever going to see the light of day with the current approach or attitude to crowdfunding.

What confounds me is that when we were talking with Robert about working together on the Precinct Kickstarter, we were very clear with him about the caveats; about all of these potential pitfalls that have now come to pass. We gave him practical advice about how to avoid them -- as well as offering financial/accounting/swag production/logistics expertise when it comes to physical rewards for backers while keeping costs to a minimum so that it doesn't eat too much into the budget. Not to mention that we have another cop on the team who could have worked very well alongside Jim to give the story some modern day flair and authenticity). In their recent Reddit AMA, Robert quoted $150k to cover all of their swag costs (sans shipping). Now, I'm not sure who's doing their accounting, but had they involved us, we could have handled all of this for a fraction of that cost (and offered more rewards to boot), ran a sharper campaign, and helped greatly to promote it amongst the adventure community.

We had already put several months of time and effort into researching rewards for the Kickstarter campaign and fine-tuning potential financials to help Jim and Robert get the absolute most from the campaign, but before we knew it, and without informing us, they launched the Precinct Kickstarter without providing us with a reason for why they reneged on such a well-suited team for the task. I can't guarantee that our involvement would have ensured Precinct's success, but I CAN say that even if it failed, the campaign would have come out with a professional image, a more heavily-anticipated title with a clearly-defined structure, and a more trustworthy-looking foundation from which to launch a second attempt.

As things panned out, I see this as a really disappointing campaign, where everything that could go wrong DID go wrong and the game's reputation has suffered, perhaps irrevocably, for it. According to our research, Police Quest was Sierra's 2nd or 3rd best-selling series, behind only King's Quest and Leisure Suit Larry. The potential of this campaign was huge, and unfortunately, they didn't listen to the advice given prior to and during the campaign, and made a royal mess of something that could have been a shoo-in for success.

Thank you for the informative post.

The Precinct campaign was a disaster. They tried banking on nostalgia and Jim Walls' name almost exclusively. They made every mistake previous kickstarters made. They didn't listen to backers who were trying to offer advice.

It was embarrassing to watch and, quite frankly, your post puts everything in perspective much more in regard to them ignoring your advice and launching the campaign without advance notice.
Logged

Nipples

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Hiker
  • *
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
    • Excitement-building adventure theme
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2013, 08:04:33 AM »

They lost out not working with Himalaya!

Perhaps Himalaya dodged a bullet? Yes, a Walls-involved police adventure game has great potential. But AGDI/Himalaya has built a sterling reputation, and maybe this project would have presented challenges and frustrations outside Himalaya's control that would have sullied Himalaya's image at a time when Himalaya is still riding high from the bang-up job they did with their Mage's Kickstarter campaign.

Still wouldn't mind seeing Walls team up with Himalaya in the future!
Logged

dakwiz

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2013, 02:26:08 PM »

They lost out not working with Himalaya!

Perhaps Himalaya dodged a bullet? Yes, a Walls-involved police adventure game has great potential. But AGDI/Himalaya has built a sterling reputation, and maybe this project would have presented challenges and frustrations outside Himalaya's control that would have sullied Himalaya's image at a time when Himalaya is still riding high from the bang-up job they did with their Mage's Kickstarter campaign.

Still wouldn't mind seeing Walls team up with Himalaya in the future!

If you asked me, I'd say it should be Walls asking for the honor of working with Himalaya and not the other way around.  ;)

I just have no idea what he and Robert L. were thinking. The flex funding thing just makes it look all the worse.
Logged

asianmusicguy

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2013, 09:15:21 AM »

who thinks HS should make there own police adventure?

Logged

dakwiz

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2013, 10:28:41 AM »

who thinks HS should make there own police adventure?

I do. :)
Logged

Nipples

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Hiker
  • *
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
    • Excitement-building adventure theme
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2013, 06:38:12 PM »

I do too. But would it sell enough to make the effort worth it? Having the involvement of a Jim Walls would give it more publicity. What's Daryl F. Gates up to these days?

UPDATE: RIP Daryl F. Gates
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 11:48:52 PM by Nipples »
Logged

asianmusicguy

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2013, 04:49:42 AM »

I know for sure the market is there people want a good police game several backers have brought up
    Himalaya Studios and how it would have been nice to see Jim work together backer hate the new tiered founding system the new community manger does not respect fans at all  anyway all they want is a true police game adventure in the style of police quest and well laid out kickstarter with nice reliable folks  which
    Himalaya Studios can do with their skill and track record snd we  have ourr own cop on staff we do not need jim or his name to make a good police game right?
Logged

Nipples

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Hiker
  • *
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
    • Excitement-building adventure theme
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2013, 06:48:31 AM »

    Himalaya Studios can do with their skill and track record snd we  have ourr own cop on staff we do not need jim or his name to make a good police game right?

I have more faith in Himalaya than I do in any other adventure game dev. They haven't let me down yet, and they've been doing their thing since, what, 2001?

In other teams' Kickstarter pitch videos, potential backers are told how much these other teams loved playing the classics (i.e., "we're one of you, really, just look at all these wall posters behind us"), while Himalaya can say, "We helped bring the classic adventure game genre back from the dead, and kept the torch lit with title after title through years of darkness while others moaned endlessly about the death of adventure gaming. End of story." Big difference. I believe Himalaya kept alive the adventure game community as much as anyone else over the last 12 years.

So, yes, I agree that Himalaya has the skill and experience to make a great police game.
Logged

FamousAdventurer77

  • Royal Treasurer
  • Active Development Team
  • Climber
  • *
  • Posts: 255
  • Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2013, 07:11:16 AM »

Thank you for the really kind words, Nipples! That seriously made my day.
Logged
"When I think of what could have been, makes it hard to start again"-- Downlow NYHC

RogerXY

  • Mage's Initiation Beta Tester
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Save early, save often
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2013, 07:32:59 AM »

Totally agree Nipples. I doubled my earlier highest KS pledge when I pledged for Mage's Initiation. None deserved the KS success as much as Himalaya Studios did.
Logged
Brimhall of Fame

asianmusicguy

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2013, 07:55:09 AM »

so yeah perfect opportunity Britney has said that when mages was finished she was pumped to work   with Jim.
I say forget Jim and Himalaya Studios  can  take time developing their own police adventure based on Britney's first hand  experiences  in modern policing I hope that is your next game in my heart.
 
Logged

Intendant S

  • Mage's Initiation Beta Tester
  • Hiker
  • *
  • Posts: 67
  • Hero of the Adventure Game Revival Movement
    • View Profile
    • Kickstart Ventures
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2013, 08:36:22 AM »

the new community manger does not respect fans at all

I'll give you the rest of that post, but this one part I can't stand by and not say something.  I've been talking with Rudy and, while I can't say much, I know for a fact that he's trying his damnedest to get things together and back on track.  He's one of us, just someone who has Robert and Jim's ears.
Logged
"Then you fear yourself. I don't want your fear; I want your love. If you can't love me, who can?"

asianmusicguy

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2013, 09:15:53 AM »

oh that's not what I meant  perhaps I was harsh I just meant to say his recent comments don't sit with me as professional i have no doubt though that he is as passionate as any of us  and wants to believe in it but with his new status he does have to be more careful with his public interactions.
Logged

dakwiz

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2013, 03:33:58 PM »

I do too. But would it sell enough to make the effort worth it? Having the involvement of a Jim Walls would give it more publicity.

I'm not saying this to be negative, but the Precinct kickstarter is an indicator that Jim Walls isn't very marketable. They banked the whole campaign on people seeing his name and wanting to hear him listen to talk about being a cop, and it didn't work. The PQ games sold because they were unlike anything else at that time.

Nothing against Walls or his design abilities - I'm a lifelong fan - but this has been true of most of the "Sierra" kickstarters. Their names were a big part of advertising games back then, but in the present the larger audience cares more about the pitch and the communication of the team than they do who's behind it. There are exceptions, though, for those few projects that made millions purely on name and track record like Project Eternity.
Logged

RogerXY

  • Mage's Initiation Beta Tester
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Save early, save often
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2013, 04:11:40 PM »

I read somewhere that PQ was Sierras 3rd most popular franchise so he should be a pretty marketable name. But unless you are Tim Schafer, a name can only get you so far. The other stuff must work as well
Logged
Brimhall of Fame

RogerXY

  • Mage's Initiation Beta Tester
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Save early, save often
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2013, 10:28:59 AM »

The project is cancelled, at least for now.

http://fund.precinctgame.com/updates/

And unfortunately it seems like they still have no idea why they couldn't get funded  :confused:

I still would love to see a new Jim Walls game but I think he should get a new development team tbh
Logged
Brimhall of Fame

Intendant S

  • Mage's Initiation Beta Tester
  • Hiker
  • *
  • Posts: 67
  • Hero of the Adventure Game Revival Movement
    • View Profile
    • Kickstart Ventures
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2013, 12:02:31 PM »

I just read the update.  I want to believe in the project, but the more I hear from Robert the less inclined I am to back (should they try again).  It's sad, really.  Precinct had so much potential but it was butchered with bad PR.
Logged
"Then you fear yourself. I don't want your fear; I want your love. If you can't love me, who can?"

dakwiz

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2013, 01:58:05 PM »

Bad PR was the least of their problems, or rather it was a mirror into the deeper issues - they didn't really plan much nor did they have anything interesting to say about the game. Disregarding the well-thought feedback of their backers probably didn't help, either.
Logged

Blackthorne

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Quester of Infamy
    • View Profile
    • Infamous Quests
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2013, 02:21:20 PM »

You don't know how floored I was when I found out that The Jim Walls project was being made without Himalaya's involvement.  Floored, absolutely flabbergasted.  And then when I saw how Robert was managing the campaign... it was unbelievable.  There were many people giving them advice and telling them, very politely too, how they could steer the campaign better.  It was all met with flat out avoidance, tacit dismissal, canned-responses and PR double speak

The whole thing was a debacle of Ishtarian proportions.  The bottom line on this is the they did not respect their audience at all - and it showed. The tried to blame their errors on Kickstarter, when the fault lay in so many other places.

Again, I was just absolutely shocked.  Know your audience.  "Precinct" by Jim Walls and Himalaya?  TAKE MY MONEY. Like, no questions asked.  For me, there wouldn't even HAVE to be a pitch!  (I realize for most there would still have to be, but I can bet if that was the log line "Precinct - a Police Procedural Adventure game by Jim Walls and Himalaya Studios" thousands of us would have thrown money at this like it was a magic wish pool.)  Instead, we got a half baked game idea, some sketches and a lot of chatting in a parking lot.

Ugh. Honestly, I was kind of disgusted my the unrepentant attitude.

Himalaya, do your own game.  I know you know how to make an excellent adventure game, and people know, trust and love you - I know I'd like to see the game.


Bt
Logged

Blake00

  • Mage's Initiation Backer
  • Explorer
  • *
  • Posts: 17
    • View Profile
    • Blake's Sanctum
Re: Police Quest creator Jim Walls's kickstarter!
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2013, 11:09:03 AM »

" what BT said.
Logged

Blake's Sanctum - Quest For Glory Series:
fan page containing pics, vids, info, walkthroughs, patches, & maps!