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I'm an old-timer from the Al Emmo beta testing, and have long been a fan of Himalaya and all it is doing.  I grieved that Al Emmo was a Westen, simply because that genre and I just never got along very well   However, I beta tested the demo with all my might, waiting for the day... the day you would do a game more akin to Quest for Glory style.  Now that day is here, and I doubt I am alone in wanting to know: when will the opportunity to assist in testing come up?  How do I keep in the know so I don't miss it?  I loved being involved in Al Emmo on another level, and I'd deeply love to have that involvement with Mage's Initiation and to donate my technical skills and beta experience (reaching all the way back to beta testing original Sierra games) to the project.

Keeping my ears open, and eager to jump in...

-Pat

I am SO revved up about the idea of an upcoming QFG-style game from Himalaya.  Especially with your experience from QfG2, I am sure that whatever game idea you pursue, you will make it really appeal to the aspects that games like QfG really hit most.  After all, each QfG game was basically a new game in and of itself, with the primary link being some reoccuring characters and plots that came back more and more- the first two were virtually stand-alones, and the third was also relatively unique.  The fourth game really was the start of the most dependance upon previous plots, and the fifth- of course- stood upon the shoulders of the previous ones altogether.  I think that taking the strengths of all these games and then using the lessons they teach to build a completely unique, original one would not be hard.  One need not seek to recreate QfG- but to exceed it with an original game!

I know I for one like the idea of having multiple classes that you have mentioned already wanting to do- I love being able to play through a game that gives me multiple directions to take.  I ALSO really like being able to effect its direction and outcome.  While games like QfG, upon winning, had limitations- you could still get a slightly different end result depending on your class.  I also REALLY liked the Paladin class, as it was an offshoot of the fighter class, with elements of magic to it, and- most importantly- was a chance to go above and beyond the call of duty in doing good.  A hero does the right thing, yes, but a PALADIN sacrifices even beyond that, taking heroism to a new level.  The fact this 1) allowed you to help characters to a further extent, 2) see more areas of the game and get access to the highest amount of content in the game, and 3) achieve the most satisfying, resolved results and ending, really made it worth the extra effort.

I was a part of the beta team for Al Emmo, but lost a lot of enthusiasm when I saw the direction it went- I certainly hope you reconsider some of your past beta team folks when looking for support on this project.  I am TOTALLY there with you!!

Sincerely,
Patrick

I think a key element that makes me a fan of many Japanese animations, and that really made Quest for Glory 4 stand out from the rest, is the willingness to break from the "Disney formula", heck even the typical American formula, of clear cut heroes and villains. Al Lowe, when outlining Toran's Passage (I think it was Toran) in his game design booklet, stated holding to the Disney formula of making villain's clearly look outwardly like villains, the good characters like good characters, etc. But QFG4 really changed that up.

One part that, to this day upon hearing the music even, really brought tears to my sisters eyes along with me was the Toby scene- that, and of course the powerful switch at the end made by Katrina, the whole little romantic interlude and constant lack of surety as to who was really good and who was not. That's something central to Asian thinking and thus why Anime has such a fun and interesting flair- you never really know what might happen next, or who will come out on top.

So I think pursuing that slightly unique style in the fantasy genre will already give you an edge. Looking not to be purely 'unpredictable' for the sake of it, but rather to make complex characters and be willing to break genre lines in a Sierra-like style (QFG4, for example- an example used a lot because frankly it's the best QFG game ever made by many fan's standards, and a top level Sierra game). I love how they would mix in comedy, horror, drama, romance... they didn't stick solely to just one genre. And the series of QFG as a whole, as well as Kings Quest, would take turns leaning towards different styles and genres. QFG really changes 'genres' with the cultural setting- even the way the story was told evolved to fit the styles of stories from the chosen culture.

One thing QFG lacked is something Kings Quest had some of- a well defined hero character. And something I feel -many- Sierra games lacked was a certain depth of character development, particularly in the main character realm. KQ4 and KQ6 pushed that envelope a bit in a good way (gosh, I'd love to see KQ4 remade!).

Adventure games rely a LOT more heavily on plot and story than most other genres- so the plot has to be GOOD, the setting interesting, intriguing, and beautiful. The Dig is the only non-Sierra adventure I've ever been passionate about, and they did a wonderful job of hitting all those elements.

I think if you don't hit either fantasy, or sci fi, you're going to loose out on audience (myself included, sorry!). I think Sierra proved through KQ and QFG that taking from unique cultural settings as well as mythological backgrounds is a very, very wise choice.

I'd really like to see higher resolution. I think to make a very appealing adventure game that will sell and not look 'dated', choosing a higher resolution is almost a must. I think choosing sprites and drawn backgrounds over 3D is a must, for a game that isn't super-big-budget but wants to look beautiful and impressive.


I don't think it would be a cop-out to capitalise on fans of Quest for Glory and take off in similar directions. Once QFG2 remake comes out, I'm going to be slavering for 'more of the same'... you should benefit from your efforts on the remake and try to produce an original game with similar elements. I also imagine your experience from working with the remakes you have done thus far will enable you really blaze trails with your next attempt!

I communicated with Al Lowe not too long ago, and the poor guy has given up on adventure games. I'm convinced the reason he has failed in his most recent, and probably last, attempts is that he tried to 1) go 3D, 2) too far too fast. He was only focused on starting with big-name companies for mass markets. Taking your approach is the best way to slip back in- relying on fans as a base, and making things that appeal to fans as familiar but STILL new and original, will help you establish yourselves and this genre.

Adventure games are NOT dead, there are both fans and potential fans out there.

-Pat, former Al Emmo beta tester (and wishing he had made it in time to become a QFG2 beta tester!)

I can say without a doubt that I would certainly adore -anything- that is time travel, point-and-click fantasy like KQ, werewolves/mythological... and if I'd voted for the time travel/sci fi one it would be rivaling the 'whopping' three votes for a sequel. However, I voted for QFG type style because I think that's what this genre really needs- I love it, I MISS QFG... I miss the feel, the humour, the fantasy, the heart... all of it. I'd love to see a completely new story, fresh ideas and plot from an original game... but with the same 'Sierra' feel that all Hima productions contain.

I'll be honest- having beta tested Al Emmo, I've seen the detail and care that went into it. I love all the work, the quality, everything... but even seeing all that, if I hadn't been given a copy of the game as part of beta-testing, I never would have purchased it. Western just isn't my style- if an Al Emmo 2 came out, I don't think I'd be interested. But if ANYTHING else came out close to the other genre's mentioned I'd be interested... I'd die and go to heaven if it was RPG/QFG style. I would like to think a LOT of other Sierra fans would flock to it, as well. You'd also get a lot of fans of the fantasy genre in general who would be interested whether or not they were familiar with Sierra. I know that I, personally, don't really even look at a game (even the popular ones off the shelf, with the best graphics) unless it is 1) fantasy in nature, or 2) has sci fi in it, but a more story-based or RP style one... preferably with mystical elements. (My favourite combination of the two is 'The Longest Journey', and its recent sequel, that combines fantasy and sci fi perfectly and keeps the adventure genre alive)

I think you should try to poll/ask the interest of other fans of adventure games and various genre's- I think from the meager responses you've gotten here you might find yourself getting mainly those who were really into Al Emmo.

Again, as I said at the start of the beta, I'd be a tough critic- I go into judging a Western story with a very skeptical view to begin with. I think I'd enjoy about any genre better. Also, while I realise it's a whole beast of its own- if you ever considering investing the time and resources in making Windows Mobile (Pocket PC, newer cell phones) versions of your games you might find a whole new market will open up. A lot of past adventure games are becoming very popular in pocketPC adaptations.

-Pat, a Hima-fan through and through

I'm really not surprised.

After all, my first serious game addiction ever- when I was a little boy- was The Legend of Zelda. You really had to have a LOT of money to not only have a computer, but ALSO buy a Sierra game (I remember them costing up to $70!!!! I think KQ6 cost that much, brand new direct from Sierra). Nintendo was easier to handle. I didn't get exposed to a Sierra game until at my friend's house- his Dad worked for HP, so he had a computer as part of his job, and his family had Kings Quest 4 on it as their only game. That's how I got addicted. I LOVED it. But they were NOT easy to find locally here in South Carolina, nor cheap. I couldn't get one for us until we got our first computer- and even then, you had to pay a lot of money (as a kid, whose parents didn't play or even know HOW to turn on the computer, it took a lot of effort) to keep your computer upgraded enough to play.

I remember playing Kings Quest 6 on my older computer- no sound card or anything, maybe it was still an IBM 286. I remember the opening 3D scene took forever to load, would crash in the middle, and would go sloooooow mooootion. It was amazing when we finally upgraded to a computer with a 16 bit sound card!!! I could hear the music, people could talk- it was great! I think that was when Windows 95 came out, so 1995 and I was 15 years old or so.


Anyway, the reason those saga's are big- and the older ones are more titles like Zelda and Mario- are the availability! It was relatively easy to get ahold of Zelda, Mario, etc during the earlier days- and MUCH harder to get access to equipement to play Sierra adventure games. Now that it is easier, adventure games have slid to the side somewhat.

A lot of people never got proper exposure to adventure games- if they did I think they might enjoy them, especially the female audience to whom "bash, crash, slash" does not always appeal. My wife won't fit that though- she LOVES Diablo and "smash die die die".

Hope my opinion helped!

-Patrick

I think that at this point, advertising the game would not be too soon- or just 'hype'. I cannot say when it will be released- I have no idea- but after playing the game somewhat myself, and seeing how the development is going, it seems like the only things left to do now are do some double, triple, etc checking.

Unlike hype where game companies, such as games like "Horizons" (if anyone remembers that one- a great game that was just never fully completed even when released, and had years of hype)... this game IS done, just being tested for complete, total wholeness and cranked clean of most foresee-able bugs. I mean, I am sure some will pop up- absolute certainty with all the machines available out there- but these guys are doing SO much to iron out kinks, I can say personally this will be more bug free than many Sierra games were on release. Why? Because Himalaya seems far more concerned in a top quality product that will shine at its best than just making the money. Sierra, early on, was like that. I'm proud to work with them in beta testing.

In my long history of pursuing game design and enjoying games- I grew up with Sierra myself, wanting to one day work for them (shattered, of course, when they fell into something very un-Sierra like)- I have seen two types of game companies and those in between. One is "entertainment"- like movie companies, their goal is entertainment, making something that will entertain and sell. Many turn into companies a lot like big movie production companies.

Then there are those that are "artistic entertainment"- oh, maybe a popular fiction style is them unlike "elite art" that freaks a lot of average joes out and entertains only the more eccentric I think. But their idea is- "entertain, and enjoy making money doing what we love, but NOT at the expense of an inferior result we are not proud of". I feel, personally, that EVERY person on this team- that I have heard of at least- is PROUD of their game, and when things come up to compromise this, they do all they can to refine it. Himalaya has certainly started its time out as an "artistic entertainment" company and I hope that the success I am SURE it will generate will strengthen, rather than seduce as it did Sierra, the company towards higher and more incredible things.


I digress. This game is currently more playable than most Sierra games were right off in the early 90's- ten times more so than the infamous QFG4. Ha ha! So, advertising the game now is a little like movies being talked about and advertised in the month or so before their release- it's basically done and being refined for complete satisfaction. After all, I was beta phase 1- and they seemed to have done in alpha testing what MOST game companies do in beta.

I hope the hype is building up- because, even as a person who really hates western themes, I'm really hyped about it some myself and I haven't even finished it yet (my focus has been demo testing- and what a demo it is! You guys have a real treat ahead!) Be assured when you get your hands on the demo, and then the full product, you will get a game worth more than what you paid for it. I don't even know what the end price will be, but I am sure of that much.

-Patrick

I am with NightShift!

Gabriel Knight!

I only played GK- the beast within, but boy, was that incredible. I am not a big fan of detective stuff, but when you mix in the fantasy element...  Another game that combined some police, detective, and pure fantasy was The Longest Journey. Anyone heard of that? It is by a relatively obscure German company and it was increeeedible. Very new, interesting, and creative- it reminded me of a Japanese game in terms of its ability to break out of any specific 'genre' and make a new story that one could not predict. Usually only Japanese games and anime have such a knack for smoothly going new directions and crossing over multiple genres.

Brit- I was thinking Asia in particular when I mentioned historical. I myself have been to the national museum in Taiwan- which, interestingly enough, holds more major historical artifacts from China than anywhere IN China (or so I was told) since the communist government which took over destroyed most of their historical artifacts. Meanwhile, the Chinese who escaped took many artifacts with them which now are, of course, in Taiwan. I snuck a camera in and took some beautiful pictures. It is fascinating to see how things like anime came clearly from Asian culture dating back thousands of years- you only need look at one of their watercolour scrolls to see the influence. I also love the idea of a scroll painting- ten feet of an image that just keeps going and going, like walking along a bridge and gazing out into the scene beyond. Beyond panoramic.

I think I know where my vote is now- be it detective, police, fantasy, historical fiction, sci fi, or a combination there-of... make it based in Asia! That would have been incredible to see. Maybe AGD should try a new approach- instead of taking an existing game and remaking it, try making an ORIGINAL game from an EXISTING series.

I cannot speak for Himalaya or those behind it either, but I will say these things.

It is a guess of mine that Himalaya is in debt after this, and has money to pay off. It is also a guess that with these requirements, and the time and effort a game like this takes to put out- especially for the first time- that there is a minimum they have to aquire and they will not be capable of starting low.

Finally, it is also a guess that the 'middle range' of 15-20 would get a negative head shake from people in hima- just a guess.

Of course, my own price ideas would be slightly similar, but, new games on the shelves these days aren't THAT low. Here's my price idea.


$50 and above- Most new games in the shelves these days that are NOT collectors items NEVER go above this unless there is something unique coming with them. So, not a good cap to go above, and if you do, I doubt it will receive much. Nooow- a good way to get extra funds and 'donations' is to have a version of higher cost that has some bonus things. Like hand painted backgrounds, or an instruction booklet signed by the team and designers- that'd be REALLY worth it! As a player, without having been a beta tester, if I loved the game I'd see it as a good deal to support the designers AND get a collectors piece for that price.

$40-49- The price of most new games on the market, and what they start at. You might get a lot of hard core gaming fans willing to start at this. Also, with your FREE demo that plays the COMPLETE game all the way up to Act 1, you have a HUGE advantage of letting curious gamers TRY the actual game before they buy it. It increases your chances of gamers who really really love it buying at this level. BUT, it's a high bracket these days, and you'll limit your initial buys. If you need a lot of purchases fast- this is a high price area. If you want to get dedicated gamers to pay the price that is worth your high investment in to the game- then start here. There are a lot of non-hardcore fans, I will warn, who might even play the demo but just be unwilling to invest this much. Personally- I would wait until it went down.

$30-39- Honestly, high is a good upper middle ground for starting if you absolutely need to pay back debts and have invested a lot into this game but want people who are not just "hard core old-style fans" to jump onto the initial bandwagon. You'll still get people unwilling to pay this price, but less often.

25-29  This is a sweet spot. I think it is a good price to even out at, whatever players say. You've invested a LOT into this game, and it really is a full, complete game that people who haven't played it cannot really comment on. If it weren't for my personal dislike of the Western genre, this would be a price I'd pay right off.

around $19- After playing the demo, if it were this price, I'd buy it. If it were more, I might not, honestly. But again, I'm a western-hater (sorry... heck, my wife LOVES John Wayne and I have only watched an entire movie with her maybe twice in our entire five year relationship!!!! That's how much I HATE Western But I LOVE Sierra-style adventure games) Before playing the demo? Hmmmm... not sure.

below $19- Not wise to dip here until it is much older, I think.


Of course, these are all just my humble opinions. I have a hunch that we're going to see it start out at the higher end, though.

-Patrick

Regarding the police style idea for future games- my thoughts, you will see. (ack, Yoda strikes again)

I feel that our culture goes through trends. Right now a BIG trend is the whole police/crime sort of thing. Another part is the reality trend that has been infusing TV and movies- but fantasy is making a comeback. Also, we are having a sad tendency to try to turn myths into "reality". Really sad, I think, since myths are just that- myths! And should be enjoyed as myths. It's like taking Star War's "force" and turning it into a modern concept by adding little mediclorian thingies. Heh. Sometimes it is FUN not to have everything explained or scientific.

I feel that while a police sort of thing could have potential, it'd be too generic a direction. I think that a place like Himalaya wants to both 1) tap into the energy and enthusiasm of players who want to see the fantasy of a genre they thought was dying, revived and 2) by drawing on the power of the past and the energy of a new style for the future, avoid the generic trends and go a new direction. Maybe even try something Sierra didn't try!

I thought of it when I was brainstorming in my earlier entry. Try a historic (or even fantasy) adventure based in, say, medieval China or Japan. Or other countries/historic areas. I think it would be neat to take something that the 'new Sierra' or other places have butchered with battles and turn it into a real story and adventure. Or, do something this modern era has forgotten about and do a historic adventure- but mix some of the fantasy and mythology in from that particular area. Quest for Glory did something like that- but you can be a little more direct, too, create a himalaya style of your own.

I know that of all things, police/detective/present day is the only thing I avoid more than western

I'd be surprised if even Chris knows yet. *laughs* I wonder if they will either draw lots, or maybe toss dice...

-Patrick

Brit said- "Do you have any additional interests outside of fantasy type games, Coroloro?  What would be your second favorite type?"

Oh, that's an easy one! Well, I THINK it is easy. It depends on if you mean out of the game genre's presently available (ie- strategy, etc) or the categories available for Sierra-Himalaya style games. As far as the second goes, I'd have to easily say Science Fiction! I enjoyed the several Space Quest games I got to enjoy, but I also enjoy more serious ones (aka "The Dig" and not just the farces). Also, I've always enjoyed the Anne McAffrey/Anime style of mixing the two and making a fantasty-type that was actually sci fi.

Now, I could say a close runner up might be historical fiction- l've always had an interest and a passion for the Middle Ages and earlier. Oh, and I loved that too Brit- since I was a boy when I started playing QFG, I was so excited when I realised the games I played actually were based off of REAL places and REAL mythology! Everytime I eat middle eastern food I remember things like "honeyed chicken" and other things the Katta Tail Inn served. Not to mentioned the other various foods like the garlicy stuff from 4, and the grecian food. Why do you think my second choice to game design was intercultural studies? Heh! QFG, that's why. I love how the games take you around the world AND outside of it at the same time.

I also enjoy how games like Kings Quest- KQ7 even, with Greek mythology, and KQ6 as well with other mythology like the land of the dead- take you into mythology from around the world as well.

But I'd enjoy a game that just took me around the world in history period. To be in medieval China or Japan and play an ADVENTURE there (not just fighting junk), or middle ages... you name it. A QFG style fighting adventure would be wonderful, but even a pure adventure like KQ or Al's game. In fact, that might be even more enjoyable than a Sci Fi game- though sci fi games have HUUUGE potential for things like that too.


Now for the reason why I, as a writer, adore fantasy and sci fi. It is because science fiction and fantasy have, through the ages, taken rough ideas and portrayed them in a way people can grasp. Sci fi has constantly taken new ideas and inventions and applied them in a way only imagination can- only to have them ACTUALLY applied that way later (http://www.livescience.com/scienceoffiction/ where you can see a direct correlation between REAL discoveries and sci fi books where they were originally talked about previously). Fantasy literature (and games), however, are able to communicate beliefs, ideas, cultures, philosophies, and more in a way that is more interesting and easier to understand than an instructional book. I believe that there are many brilliant minds out there- like JR Tolkein- who chose to communicate by writing a fiction over just writing a book on their theories and feelings. CS Lewis, also, is remembered most for his fictional series over even his many theological and philosophical writings.

What I loved about Sierra fantasy games is how they were the congealed form of the minds of both the primary authors, and those who pitched in to help form the final game played. You explored and interacted with the ideas, interests, and meanings they wanted to convey while at the same time learning a little about them and the team that worked on the game. I think an historical fiction- or even just historically based game- would do this as well, as history itself teaches incredible truths and would be exciting to "live out" in a game.

The reason Japanese games like Final Fantasy still have appeal- despite the fighting that bores me at times- is because, while non-linear plots are interesting for a time, it is the relatively linear story that a person gets to experience that intrigues them. The player wants interactivity, they want choices, but they want STRUCTURE too. The human mind naturally wants some sort of structure and path, without which eventually we either panic, get bored, or give up. Movies, and linear stories, will never loose their appeal- and that is why I also believe adventure games like Himalaya is making have a chance still.

Ahhh, sorry for my tangent. I get excited about this stuff!

-Patrick

Looks like everything is being posted her BUT what I posted about. So much for trying to be constructive

-Patrick

How could I pass up the opportunity to be the first to post on the public user forums? Although it will be sad if my only claim to fame is "Posted first on the Hima forums when they went public".

I thought it might be nice to open things up with a spot for folks to post their first impressions of Al Emmo (when it comes out)- or even their impressions prior to- and thoughts of what might come next, what you'd like to come next, etc. Of course, here is where Chris will kick me in the tush since I think of everything they want to know, another opinion of "You should do THIS" is not at the top. But hey, I'm sure everyone who comes here will have one- might as well get it off your chest! That's what these forums are about, anyway, right?

As for me, being a long-time traditional fan of games like Kings Quest and Quest for Glory, I've always loved the fantasy genre. Sci fi isn't bad either- I enjoyed Space Quest, and so it is a good second runner up, but fantasy foremost. I never played Leisure Suit Larry myself- of course, I was younger then, and it didn't interest me. I'd like to see some real fantasy stuff coming up- one thing I loved about Quest for Glory is it was a SEROIUS adventure, new and original with real heart and strong characters, but it didn't take itself too seriously and had a light heart. I'd like to see a fantastical adventure like this come out of the brilliant minds and artists here! I would like to see them create- with the masterful music, skilled writing, and hard work, and more- a whole world of their own that stands up in its own right. Not just a comic masterpiece with spoofy airs, like Al Emmo, but an immersive fantasy world. I think a lot of fans out there of QFG and KQ will agree- we've loved some of the remakes certain anonymous people have put out for this very seroius, we love the fantastical worlds. I'd like to see them make their own, now- the magical, sword slashing, fantastical kinds.

Okay, there's me! Let's hear your thoughts.

-Patrick