Sequel to Mage's Initiation??

[Kristophe]

I have completed the game 4 times now - once for each of the mage elements.

I have also exported each of my completed games as per instructions.  Those same instructions were also indicative of a sequel in the works.

Is there any chance you are seriously working on such?  And if so, will it take a additional 10 years to surface into the pc adventure gaming world?  ( I ask because, as an old Vietnam veteran, time anymore is becoming more obvious with each passing month).

Great game, btw - very reminiscent of the old Sierra On-line game series "Quest for Glory".

[GameDevChris]

I like that people are already asking for a sequel. That's a good sign!

Someone asked this question on the GOG forums the other day, so rather than double post it, I'll just link it so you can read some of my initial thoughts on sequels there:

https://www.gog.com/forum/mages_initiation_reign_of_the_elements/mages_initiation_2

[Kristophe]

I like that people are already asking for a sequel. That's a good sign!

Someone asked this question on the GOG forums the other day, so rather than double post it, I'll just link it so you can read some of my initial thoughts on sequels there:

https://www.gog.com/forum/mages_initiation_reign_of_the_elements/mages_initiation_2

Thank you - that pretty much answered my question re your plans with a sequel at this time.

[Adventure4Life]

We do have multiple sequels already written in rough form and, yes, an arc for the series already exists. Potential future sequels would delve deeper into discovery of things left behind from the Old World and what happens in West Ele'wold and Dominatra etc.

It also became apparent in development that it's very difficult to do an RPG with multiple classes when all of them are Mages with only their spells and personalities differentiating them. It severely limits how different the solutions for puzzles can be between the classes. For example, a thief could climb to pick an apple from a tree, while a Mage could cast their Retrieve spell, whereas a fighter might use strength to barge the tree with force and make the apple fall. But when all of your classes are spellcasters, the solutions are pretty much limited to their unique spells.The only way around that is to add other non-Mage classes. Or perhaps to make certain Mage classes specialize in a trade that mimics the techniques of a fighter (e.g. Fire Mage) or a thief and then make puzzle-solving more reliant on their physical stats rather than magical ones.

Of course, if there are sequels. we'd really need to find a good way to streamline the development process because we can't be taking ten years to finish each game. Maybe it'd be more realistic with an investor or publisher behind it. And of course, it all depends on how well the first game does.

I 100% agree with the multiple mage class thing in this post.

The biggest problem with Mages is that spells basically act like items, items you may need to collect (as in learn the spell from the sphere) but they lack any intrinsic meaning. A "key" opens a lock.... but an "open spell" can open anything.. maybe.

What this meant for MI, imo, was that when playing the different classes the act of the "gameplay" is nearly identical. Following the example above, one mage may not have a "open spell" but another may have a "melt" spell.. one opens the lock, one melts the lock but the act of opening the chest is the same.. open your spell book and see what spells can trigger.

I think it is a complicated issue caused by the multi-use nature of spells. As far as gameplay is concerned a key or a crowbar or a lock pick or a bolt cutter or a spell, or a spell, or a spell, or a spell.... everything but the spells feel different.

I do hope the game does well and we see more. I personally loved this game and it has re-sparked my interest in adventure games.

I know this maybe heresy.. but I think that maybe it might be time to move away form AGS. I mean obviously you guys know how to use it very well, and that is cool.. but maybe it is holding you back as well. I would like to see the same style and art, but maybe produced in a more modern engine. Even if that engine is overpowered for a 2D project. I think it would free up a lot of design ideas as well as fidelity like resolution, frame rate, audio quality and more.

[Balinaeri]

I don't mind new classes. The GameSpot review said basically the same thing about only having mages.

I am also fine with continuing to use AGS. This is supposed to be a retro game, right? It should have a retro look and feel.

My other light criticism of the game is this. I know that you need to support pacifist players, but I didn't like that combat earned me no XP at all, and didn't improve my skills or characteristics in any way. Really made all those wandering monsters in the forest while I was trying to map it incredibly annoying. Oh look, more spiderlings. I get nothing at all for killing them. Blegh.

[Gronagor]

My other light criticism of the game is this. I know that you need to support pacifist players, but I didn't like that combat earned me no XP at all, and didn't improve my skills or characteristics in any way. Really made all those wandering monsters in the forest while I was trying to map it incredibly annoying. Oh look, more spiderlings. I get nothing at all for killing them. Blegh.

Good critique! Although it did not bother me as much, I hear what you are saying.
If I wanted to go philosophical, I would say it is a good lesson that you do not have to kill everything you see, just what you need.
However, this is an adventure game in an RPG and FPS era, so I doubt it fits into that mould.

[Adventure4Life]

I 100% disagree with multiple classes

Yeah, I like the idea of different mage classes as well. All I was saying is that it is difficult to make a game feel unique to each type of mage. As essentially the gameplay is identical.

Adventure Games, particularly classic or emulated classic ones have always suffered by "pack and rub". As in you pick up everything not nailed down (put it in your pack) and then rub it on everything you see until something works. The problem with spells is that they are basically permanent items. So running out of ideas and then randomly trying your spells is basically the same for all types of mages in MI. So casting one mage spell over another mage's spell [spoiler]on the chains to break them[/spoiler] for example is identical as far as the player is concerned.

MI seems to try and get around this by sometimes using alternative puzzle solutions. A good example is how you do the Wasp Puzzle and bad example is how you help the wounded prince. In that example as an earth mage [spoiler]you just cast the spell on the wound to take the rock out of his leg[/spoiler] but on all the other mages you [spoiler]click on the leg with your hand icon[/spoiler]. While this is technically "different" it is no negligible that it may as well be the same. MI tends to have a non-magic solution and a magic solution. So if your specific mage has a magic solution the game then bars you from the other solution. I am not sure this is the best way to do it.

I just think it is a very hard thing to do, design wise.

I am also fine with continuing to use AGS. This is supposed to be a retro game, right? It should have a retro look and feel.

Having the game "look" like a classic adventure is not dependent on it being done in AGS. The look and feel can be replicated if that is something someone wishes no matter what the engine is. The biggest factor for AGS is the vast experience the devs have in it, and now that the 1st game is done, much of the development process of panel beating AGS into shape has been done. I would imagine a new game would be significantly less work than the original was.

You would get access to things like audio fidelity for example. Something this game has been heavily criticised for, as the voice acting is very good, but the compression format leaves heavy artifacts in the audio that is pretty hard on the ear. Things like the cartoon sequences could be done a lot better with higher framerates and less chopping. Being able to alt+tab cleanly, be ported to all platforms. I have made many games in AGS over the years (at a hobby level) and the engine does have many limitations. This can not be denied. I would bet the farm that there were design concepts in the game that didn't make it to release as the engine prevented them.

Retro gaming is a complex thing, imo. You want the retro feel, but we only really want the good stuff from those days. There are plenty of things about gaming in the 80s that sucked. They sucked then and they still suck and making a modern retro inspired game shouldn't, as far as I am concerned, bring all those terrible parts back as well as the good stuff. For example MI has an autosave. That is not "retro" but dying and loosing progress is lame as!!

[Gronagor]

Out of curiosity... I hear that a few people would prefer a game to be made with Unity, with nice 3D graphics (obviously somewhat imitating the 2D style.)

Should a sequel then go with a RPG perspective like Hero-U did, a FPS view, or try and have a lower angle (always pointing in one direction) view like the classic adventure games... only in 3D?
Just curious what people/fans of the genre like.

[Balinaeri]

If I wanted to go philosophical, I would say it is a good lesson that you do not have to kill everything you see, just what you need.
However, this is an adventure game in an RPG and FPS era, so I doubt it fits into that mould.

Well, the problem is that as I said, I was mapping. So, I didn't want to run into the next screen until I'd written down all I wanted to write. And the venom from the spiderlings made them a creature I couldn't ignore. I had to go ahead and kill them. Of course, in general, that's true of all the creatures, but the spiderlings were wimpy enough that I could let them hit me for a few rounds if I wasn't concerned about the venom.

I'm picking nits. I liked the game. I just felt like you should get something from defeating the mobs, other than the small (or even zero in the case of spiderlings) chance of random loot. This is something I always felt QfG did very well. You could work on your block, dodge, and parry skills, even against low level mobs, which helped you when you faced the higher level ones. I'm not saying you should mimic QfG. But it feels to me as if there's room for improvement here.

[Balinaeri]

Should a sequel then go with a RPG perspective like Hero-U did, a FPS view, or try and have a lower angle (always pointing in one direction) view like the classic adventure games... only in 3D?
Just curious what people/fans of the genre like.

if you want to change the engine, and there are benefits to doing so, go for it. But if it's an FPS view, I probably won't play. A more 3D view as in the 3rd Gabriel Knight would be fine. Although that one looked awkward at times as you had 3D models interacting with 2D bitmaps. Still, that's something that could definitely be done better today.

[Balinaeri]

I am also fine with continuing to use AGS. This is supposed to be a retro game, right? It should have a retro look and feel.

You would get access to things like audio fidelity for example. Something this game has been heavily criticised for, as the voice acting is very good, but the compression format leaves heavy artifacts in the audio that is pretty hard on the ear. Things like the cartoon sequences could be done a lot better with higher framerates and less chopping. Being able to alt+tab cleanly, be ported to all platforms. I have made many games in AGS over the years (at a hobby level) and the engine does have many limitations. This can not be denied. I would bet the farm that there were design concepts in the game that didn't make it to release as the engine prevented them.

Retro gaming is a complex thing, imo. You want the retro feel, but we only really want the good stuff from those days. There are plenty of things about gaming in the 80s that sucked. They sucked then and they still suck and making a modern retro inspired game shouldn't, as far as I am concerned, bring all those terrible parts back as well as the good stuff. For example MI has an autosave. That is not "retro" but dying and loosing progress is lame as!!

I concede your points. Well made.

[Balinaeri]

A more 3D view as in the 3rd Gabriel Knight would be fine. today.

Yes, I'm quoting myself. Sue me.

I read something somewhere, and i can't remember if it was Jane Jensen or one of the developers, who said it. But Sierra basically forced them to use this new engine for GK3, rather than the one everyone was familiar with. And that was the prime factor causing their delays to release, which led to the infamous cat hair puzzle.

[MusicallyInspired]

I could be wrong (and Chris correct me if I am), but I don't believe the compression has anything to do with AGS. The compression artifacts in the speech lines are simply due to OGG Vorbis compression. We probably could have used HD 24-bit 96Khz stereo WAV files for the audio just fine but it would bloat up the game to enormous and unreasonable proportions.

[Gronagor]

... and considering the amount of recorded speech in this game!! Scary!

[bsnd]

If I wanted to go philosophical, I would say it is a good lesson that you do not have to kill everything you see, just what you need.
However, this is an adventure game in an RPG and FPS era, so I doubt it fits into that mould.

That is incorrect. The Coles' QFG games had your skills increase as you used them, combat being one of the best exercise of all skills. RPG's as old as the 80s had experience points gained from fighting. I'm not sure how that has anything to do with the current "FPS era". The "mould" has been the same for decades.

[Gronagor]

Yes, you are right, and I didn't say killing monsters weren't in the games in the past. I meant in an era where FPS and RPG are the preferred games of the masses, it is kinda expected from games.